(v) rough water
Lynne
Member
I guess this is mostly a question for sea swimmers - is there any efficient way to swim in rough water which has no obvious shape or form? It comes from all directions so you can't anticipate and adapt to swim with the water - it hits from all sides. Apart from regular training in these conditions, does anyone have any specific techniques that help?
I ask because I find it a very trying, tiring physical and mental battle when it is over a longish distance.
Thanks!
Comments
I don't know if it actually makes a difference.
But personally i find less and more powerful strokes, head down, sight less and making my self "long" in the water feels like i am doing better progress then going the opposite way e.g. short strokes, sighting more often and stuff like that.
Below is typical example of my local swim spot - on the headland you will get currents and backwash so it feels you are just bouncing around and the rip will slow you right down.
@andiss your picture confirms I am talking to the right person
So from my experience - if I start sighting more and doing shorter strokes than normal - i tend to feel more "stressed" or "panicked" and for some reason It's almost like you get more worried about the situation and start worrying too much about not progressing fast enough.
I come from a surfing background and when faced in wild and dangerous situations you need to stay calm.
From my experience a lot of open water swimmer don't tend to know enough about near shore "rough" conditions as usual swim locations are usually deep or protected.
Grab your swim fins and go bodysurfing - you will learn a lot.
Mark Cunningham is a true inspiration
Awesome clip, was a boogie boarder in my youth and did some body surfing then too... Cape Town
Kalk bay reef?
No, Atlantic side - Llandudno, Noordhoek, Kommetjie, Sandy bay...
Holy moley. I've body surfed most of my life, but NOTHING like that. I am flat out amazed.
I just have to post this pipe footage
@Andiss and I by coincidence had an brief exchange on Twitter over this subject this morning and we're both in agreement about what he says about not enough OW swimmers getting to understand the range of the water and shore conditions. Funnily enough I also was a surfer before I became an OW swimmer, though unlike @Andiss I no longer surf.
It's an old article that I haven't checked recently, but here's one I write specifically on the subject (HOW TO: Swimming in rough water). Here unlike Andiss in very rough water what I do varies dependent on factors like wind strength and as importantly, wind & chop direction. I will change my stoke from long and keeping lower in the water than usual to sometimes increasing stroke rate.
loneswimmer.com
@loneswimmer I would agree with shifting the stroke - especially if you swim between the shore and the breakline. In that case you would tend to sight more and time your strokes pending on the periodicity of the waves.
My previous suggestion would be in more backwash situation.
Flat = swim
Waves = surf
Taken from your article @loneswimmer ..."With asymmetric short period waves, there will no discernible pattern of waves to the swimmer. Sometimes having cleared one wave, you will crash immediately into another..."
With continuous battering as weird as it may sound, I find I even begin to get angry and that is something I need to control. First you feel that no progress is being made and to make matters worse you feel like the sea is toying with you. This I guess is when you need to put your head down and stroke, one arm at a time - progress taking a back seat to staying alive
It totally is.
While not a religious woman, nor particularly given to anthropomorphism, I think the sea does have Will. On my good days, I think it's a harsh but inherently benevolent teacher. On my bad days, I think Its sole purpose is to knock the arrogance straight out of any human who encounters It.
I think it's a harsh but inherently benevolent teacher. On my bad days, I think Its sole purpose is to knock the arrogance straight out of any human who encounters It.
For the poetic version of what I was trying to say...
I like to slow my stroke rate and handle rough water gently. If you get angry and smack the water, it will smack you back, only harder.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
Don't fight the water. It will always win. Try to relax and roll with it.
So simple and at the same time so challenging.
Don't overthink it and you'll be ok. Your stroke should naturally adjust to the wave interval or slop. It worked out ok for me.
I second others' -relax and go with the flow-
Not that I haven't experienced frustration with sloppy choppy "confused" water, especially when I'm on a time schedule, but I've reminded myself each time that it's pointless. It's like getting mad and frustrated that the water is wet. /:)
So, when I get down to the water and see that it's rough, then that dictates my swim for the day, regardless of what I may have had planned.
And I go in with the new plan of enjoying the new and ever changing experience and have fun with the chop!
To me, beyond the specific stroke technique, this mental piece is much more important because then I'll relax and enjoy rather than get frustrated and fight it...which we'll never win!
b-(
Though I will admit that sometimes I do go hard in the chop for a while just to get a different workout, thinking perhaps I'm actually going faster...not likely, but it's fun anyway.
\m/
FWIW, this is a brilliant thread. And "rough" can be a relative term as well. I have seen days at Aquatic Park that I would call pancake flat and had newbies look at it and say" what do we do when it's so rough".
I will henceforth refer them to this thread.
Thank YOU!
For me it's fine to relax and go with the flow when there is nothing at stake so to speak. If it's just a training swim then hell yeah, some rough water is like a shot of vodka. My question originated following a planned marathon swim which happened to involve v rough water.
I speak for myself of course, but I find it less easy to just jump in and enjoy when the end game is to go the whole distance. I think this is where my question was headed - what kind of stroke adaptation will help to get you there - where finishing is the desired goal.
Lynne,
To your point that it's for a marathon swim, "relax and go with the flow" is even more relevant and apropos...and necessary!
Stroke technique is important in as much as it's good, meaning not creating strain and pain.
But, by far (and I've observed many many channel swims with not ideal strokes; as well for myself), it's the mental preparation and developed fortitude that gets people to the finish!
And that all happens in your training.
So, I stick by what I said. Go find your joy in it, and the long swim will be that much easier and more fulfilling.
And that has very little to do with stroke technique or adaptation.
Brilliant thread and very applicable to me given recent (DNF) events.
On the way to the southern side of Issyk Kul, the boat "was a-rocking" and I was beginning to worry. I have little to no experience in that sort of water, and my previous attempt (Ocean City, MD 9-miler) with some waves ended up badly. Add to that the cold air and probably cold water, and I had some butterflies in ma belly!
Getting in the water, at 13C, turned out to not be too bad. But about an hour in when the waves started getting rough (context being everything here, rough to me was 1 to 1.5m between peak and trough), I started to get motion sick. Those waves were probably wimpy for many of you (I recall a pic of Penny Palfrey doing Molokai with what looked like 2-3m waves), but for me they were significant.
More significant was the motion sickness. Once that started, I couldn't drink anything. Water would go in and I'd just spit it out. I couldn't stomach even plain water. Shortly after that, dehydration set in, and according to the doc, that probably led me to begin feeling the cold.
All along I was relaxed and went with the flow. Videos of me show me swimming comfortably, and at least for the first hour going pretty much the speed I expected (~3K per hour) and only a little under my typical stroke rate (58-60 first hour, low 50's after that). But relaxing and going with the flow does nothing if you're unable to imbibe, if you're dehydrated, if you're hypothermic...
For next year, I intend on spending more weekends at the lake, to get more experience in that water (I only had about 4 days of experience in that lake and all on calm/flat days). Additionally, I'm going to ask the boat captain for a 3-day window, with some remuneration should the conditions suck each morning and I postpone to the next day. (The boat logistics was the most difficult part of the planning this year, but my crossing effort so impressed the Kyrgyz that the boat captain, hotel owner, and other lake crosser all said they expected to see me next summer and expected to see me complete the crossing, so I think I can parlay that into this 3-day window thing w/o incurring too much expense.)
Thanks again for this thread. One of my favorites of the year. And yes, @Lynne, I know you were asking mostly sea swimmers, but I've learned that when the lake you're swimming in is ~106 miles by 37 miles, you should plan for sea conditions.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
And yes, @Lynne, I know you were asking mostly sea swimmers, but I've learned that when the lake you're swimming in is ~106 miles by 37 miles, you should plan for sea conditions.
IronMike, that's a big lake! Most of my training is also in a lake and for sure it can get rough but I find that there is a big difference between rough conditions in a lake and in the sea - particularly with regards swell and current. Also in a rough lake, taking in water is not an issue whereas getting jug fulls of seawater can make you pretty sick (although I believe your lake is saline).
Looking forward to hearing about your attempt at the crossing next year
So true Lynne! Ocean City and swimming in the Atlantic for so long (I made 4.1 miles before folding) in so much salt really turned my stomach. Swimming for hours in the Med this past summer, though, interestingly, didn't do much to my mouth or stomach.
Lake Issyk Kul is slightly salty, but only slightly. It really is difficult to tell. Perhaps it's all the nuclear sludge the Soviets spilled into the lake in the mid 20th c.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
you might enjoy this one lads,
@andiss, looks like the surf version of Groundhog Day
OMG that video Is giving me the absolute heebie jeebies! I am pretty scared of 'not knowing which way is up' under big waves!!!!
That video is exactly how I recall my entire surfing experience...
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
I forgot to mention probably the most important thing about rough water swimming in my earlier comments.
You need to get out there and train in the bad stuff to actually figure out how you do in it. One of the things that made me successful in the crappy stuff was that I'm not afraid to go out in there. I love to race in crappy conditions because I know (or convinced myself that I knew) that my competition was afraid of what was going out.
Tampa Bay 2000 was a nasty day on the water. I should have lost the race to a younger and much faster swimmer. I knew I was going to win because of the conditions and the fact that the swimmer from Cal Berkeley (Georgios Tsianos- good guy) was doing pace 100s in the hotel pool.
@ironmike, you need to get into the mindset of refusing to quit and not to give in to the conditions. Convince yourself that it's better to be in the water than on the boat. Whatever it takes. Get out in the slop and train through it. I've gotten out of 3 races in my career and it pains me that I did. It cost me a slot on the 1995 Pan Pac and 2005 World teams. DNFing infects an athlete like a cancer. Quit one and it'll be easier to quit next time. It bums me out that you have more DNFs than finishes, and you make a joke of it. Train hard and race hard. If you get back to DC, the offer still stands to paddle the Potomac with you.
Chris
You are soooo right about practicing in crappy conditions.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
@IronMike
"But relaxing and going with the flow does nothing if you're unable to imbibe, if you're dehydrated, if you're hypothermic..."
I agree, but in this discussion, Lynne's question is about how to get to the end of a long swim event and asking about "stoke adaptation" in rough conditions.
@Lynne
"I find it less easy to just jump in and enjoy when the end game is to go the whole distance. I think this is where my question was headed - what kind of stroke adaptation will help to get you there - where finishing is the desired goal."
I really don't believe "kind of stroke adaptation" is any significant factor in "finishing the desired goal".
I agree with Chris in taking every possible opportunity to practice in rough conditions.
The more you do it, the better you'll find your stroke that keeps you going, but more importantly building the mental capacity to keep moving forward for however long it takes to finish...whether that's a training swim or the event you've built up to.
It's so hard, nay, impossible, to find a swim buddy willing to go into the rough. And I'm too scared to go on my own. Mostly because I am afraid that if I got into trouble, the rescuers would say "What in the world were you thinking?!!?!" and I wouldn't have a good answer for them.
That's why having a 'safe' place to swim is so important. Dover Harbour, for instance, is a great place to experience nasty, choppy, confused conditions, while still being at no risk of being swept away, and always being within 50 metres of the shore. La Jolla Cove is similar in some ways, in that it is sheltered, but capable of showing you all sorts of chop, swell etc within a shot swim from the shore. Having swim buddies, or people looking out for you, is always important though!
I managed to get hit by a rowing she'll in Dover Harbor. They were out by the breakwater and I was in close to shore. I got hit in the back of the head and neck. You can see the cut/scab in my Channel video.
I did my training at 6 AM the week leading up to my swim. I had the harbor all to myself with this one exception. I ended up there alone because I kind of got run off from the afternoon. Mayor Fred noticed that I only swam for 30 minutes the day I got to town (right off the plane), and told me that I wouldn't make it across. I gave the quick resume and he wasn't at all impresses that I had swam Tampa Bay, Lac St Jean, or Atlantic City (I was mum on the fraud that is MIMS). It was easier to swim alone at dawn. One of the benefits was that the tide was up, so my sensitive feet didn't take the beating walking down to the water.
I have been in and on the ocean as a surfer, beach lifeguard, swimmer, body surfer and free diver from an early age...we were at the beach or islands every chance we had....so I have been in a lot of conditions...the ocean can be adapted to in most of her moods if one makes peace with her and has respect for her...I am not going to control her or dominate her...I am going to attempt to feel her mood...feel her energy and get into her rhythm. As I move forward...if I can get into that flow...it a joyous swim no matter what the conditions....some very rough and turbulent conditions can be very joyous...I have however been on long swims when I can't make the connection and the swim can be a frustrating and water sucking experience...then it is time to get out and return another day for a joyous immersion in the ocean. The stroke will be dictated by the conditions and the energy rhythms of the swells on any given day...if it is just chop then a shorter stroke may be the only choice.
"I never met a shark I didn't like"