Training volume and tide assistance

jppr17jppr17 Member
edited March 2012 in Beginner Questions
Greetings and salutations!

I'm training for The 17 mile Ederle Swim in August 2012. Given the fact that there will most probably be a positive tide on a large portion of the swim how do I adjust max training distance in a non-tide enviroment like the pool or a lake?

Is there a rule of thumb, like longest swim on a lake will be 70% of tide assisted distance on a river?

I was planning to keep my longest training swim for this at 10 miles for this in a lake. and 10K in a pool.

Any advice?

JP
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Comments

  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    edited March 2012
    (See cartoon attached.)

    My 10K in the UK was down the Dart River. I hit the 4K mark about 20 minutes earlier than I expected, and hit the 8K mark about 40 minutes earlier. I finished the entire thing in 2:34.55. My 'flat' 5K time (5 x loops in a lake) was 1:47. My goal for the 10K was 3:30 based on no help from the current.

    My training leading up to it was ~3200 yards per workout, 4x per week. For a couple months prior, I'd swim 'long' on a weekend day, gradually building up to 2.5 hours.

    Way more experienced folks will respond to you, I just wanted to give you a purely amateur take on it.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    @jppr17 There's no rule of thumb because it depends on how much of a tide/current assist you'll be getting.

    With Ederle I think it's more useful to focus on how long you'll be swimming, rather than the distance. Historically, Ederle has been a 5.5-7 hour swim (with an occasional 8-hour finish), depending on the speed of the swimmer. Plan your training swims accordingly.

    If you want to get technical, you can consult the tide tables for NY Harbor for the day of the swim, and estimate an average current assist. Then input your swim speed and estimate your finish time. However, there are other unpredictable factors that can affect the push you'll get, usually having to do with weather.

    A 10-mile training swim sounds about right, I think. Ederle can also be choppy... schedule your lake training swim on a windy day, perhaps?

    Good luck!
  • Train as if there's no assisting tide. That way this year, when the tide fails to show up on time, unlike any other year as everyone will say, you won't be caught out. As Evmo says, more rough water training is never wasted.
  • ChickenOSeaChickenOSea Charter Member
    with MIMS I just looked at a few years of finishing times, took the longest ones and trained for time rather than distance. Of course, I came second last.
  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    said:

    with MIMS I just looked at a few years of finishing times, took the longest ones and trained for time rather than distance. Of course, I came second last.

    I would be ecstatic to come in second to last!

  • ChickenOSeaChickenOSea Charter Member
    I was!!!
  • WaterGirlWaterGirl Charter Member
    In my limited experience, the 60% rule for the continuous swim seems like a bare minimum. My long swims are currently 5500 yards. That would be about 60% of 9000 yards, 5 miles or 8K. I'm pretty sure I could handle that, but it's pushing the envelope. To have fun, feel good, and swim decently, 70-80% would be more reasonable.

    I don't trust the weekly yardage number, except as a negative. In other words, if you're not swimming the total distance on a weekly basis, you may have problems. I've been swimming over 10 miles per week for at least a year. Right now, I'm up to about 15 miles per week. I don't think I could swim 10 miles tomorrow. Or, if I could, it would be slow and painful.

    I'm with ChickenOSea--I'm training for the worst case in terms of time. My 10-mile swim (Swim the Suck) has a cut-off of 6 hours, so I'm going to do a 6-hour swim before it. I want to have fun and swim my best, not push my endurance just to finish. If 6 hours is massive overkill (I hope!), it's worth it.



  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited March 2012
    said:

    I don't trust the weekly yardage number, except as a negative. In other words, if you're not swimming the total distance on a weekly basis, you may have problems.

    I don't have a good explanation for this (just experience and intuition), but... my sense is that the "target distance per week" rule-of-thumb is less relevant for shorter distances. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say anything under about 18-20km.

    I wouldn't want to do a 10K on 10K/week of training. Same for 10 miles. But I could imagine doing 20K on 20K/week of training. And I did do several swims of 20+ miles last year on (somewhat less than) 20 miles/week of training.

    What's special about the 18-20km threshold? I'm not sure. But for me, 5-6 days per week of "about an hour" of swimming gets me to 18-20km in a week. Actually, I think "about an hour" of swimming, most days, is just a basic requirement for keeping a decent feel for the water. If that hour of swimming includes some intensity - such as the workouts described in the Lunchtime Set Thread - then I think a swimmer can actually accomplish quite a lot with this sort of training.
  • Wow! This forum rocks! Thanks for the advice you all. I'm shifting my " training paradigm" from distance to time on the water. Will incorporate rough water swims (Coney island or long Beach in choppy days). Thanks again!
  • EC pilot Mike Oram is fond of saying; "Experience is something you usually gain - just after you need it" .
  • I've been researching training for the English Channel on several blogs (thanks loneswimmer and several others on the forum) and books and developed a DIY plan that I hope will prepare me for my attempt next July. I'm using weekly distance as my yard stick, so to speak, but planning my week so I am doing quality pool workouts during the week, focusing on speed and technique, and getting in a long swim (in open water whenever feasible) on Saturday or Sunday. The plan doesn't have a seasonal cycle - just one long progression to next summer. And, I know there will be blips along the way that will mess up my intended weekly training. I'd appreciate input on the plan and suggestions for improvements. In addition to swimming, I'm doing yoga, some strength training and cycling when I can squeeze that in. And, working fulltime and volunteering for a couple of non-profit organizations. https://app.box.com/s/scaufmfy7vdi9c34cqmu
    Molly Nance, Lincoln, Nebraska
    http://mollysbigswim.blogspot.com/
    www.facebook.com/molly.nance
  • SharkoSharko Sonoma County, CAMember
    I think time in the water in various conditions is what is used...if the swim is expected to take 15 hours then I think an 8 hr swim is probably enough..knowing my mind can get me the rest of the way and why beat the body up more than is necessary....Pool interval training helped and then a long swim on the week-end..upping the time in water each week and I think it is important to be able to pick up your speed at anytime of the swim including the end of the swim thinking of breaking through a tide along the French shoreline....I seem to recall a section in Lynne Cox's book where her coach suggested she be able to sprint for a mile when she was already tired....probably good advise for some swims where the end (wind and tides) can change and be unpredictable...kind of like the Alcatraz swim this morning with a strong flood...I am saying to myself...how much faster do I need to swim to make it to the "rock".....in this case much faster on a 3.4 flood...I wonder if this is how it felt when the escapees were washed out the Golden Gate to the Farallons on a strong Ebb???
    "I never met a shark I didn't like"
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