Non-freestyle stroke "records" in OWS

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  • NiekNiek Member
    edited November 2012
    @ Haydn You should read the Fina rules.
    With Freestyle you can swim any swim you like. Only during a relay or a medley you can't swim a backstroke, butterfly or breaststroke in the way the Fina rules describe, during the freestyle.
    Meaning if during your freestyle you want to swim doggie-style, breaststroke arms with butterfly legs, butterfly arms with breaststroke legs, or more examples >here< it's all allowed.
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • I know it's allowed, that's why it's freestyle and any stroke goes, even those that would disqualify other styles. And that is why making rules for non freestyle swimmers disadvantages the swimmer who not only has to get across, but also has to ensure his stroke conforms to the new rules. Freestylers only have to get across.........That is why I believe front crawl should be used and not freestyle. Then front crawlers too have to comply with the rules. (that is if the current rules are due to be overhauled).
  • That's turning things around. Not good!

    You want to cross the EC in a different stroke that's harder to do legal than freestyle. And now you want to make it harder for the others also?!?
    Nobody said you have to do it in that other stroke.
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  • "Nobody said you have to do it in that other stroke".

    Try telling that to the swimmers that do swim other strokes. They are compelled to do so. It forces them once the idea sinks in, the challenge to do other than freestyle is consuming.

    I am just suggesting that if the rules make their swim tougher than the freestyler, we should also be looking at ensuring the freestyler too becomes subject to them.

    Whilst Fina allow freestyle races, there is no need to force open water swimmers to follow suit.

    If this thread seeks to sharpen up the rules for stroke infringement, then why not forbid freestyle and bring in front crawl?
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited November 2012
    Because freestyle is an official stroke. You're free to do the freestyle as front crawl. No breaking of the rules there.
    And if you decide to do a breaststroke for instance. You have to do that stroke in the way it is described in the rules. If you do, it's a breaststroke and otherwise it will be called a freestyle.
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  • I know. But lets just scrap freestyle and bring in front crawl. Then the rules are equivalent to all swims.

    Great discussion though.
  • The rules are equivalent. They all have to abide to Fina rules.
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  • As far as I'm concerned, this is a set of rules that sounds reasonable. Not sure about the breaststroke legs for butterfly, does it really make the stroke easier? It's allowed in Masters swimming if I recall? I'll stick with the dolphin kicks.

    There's still the "problem" of having an observer who will know how to enforce these rules.
  • Dolphin kicks with butterfly?
    Only possible if the race is called as run under Masters rules.

    But I wouldn't find that going into a right direction. We would get 2 kinds of butterfly swims/records/etc.
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  • SylleSylle Member
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    Dolphin kicks with butterfly?
    Only possible if the race is called as run under Masters rules.

    I guess you mean breaststroke kicks here?

    I'm not sure if anyone doing fly in OW even uses this technique. Not in the videos I've seen anyway.
  • Why do we need to worry about Masters rules or other rules by other organisations? On a fly swim, do you really expect to touch France with both hands? OWS has its own needs for stroke differences so we shouldn't have to comply with every nuance that Fina or others insist Olympic racers have to. Of course, freestylers have virtually no stroke rules , so they don't worry about their swim 'not counting' and that is why alternative stroke swimmers have the kudos (more people have stood on the moon that swam the English Channel other than freestyle)?
  • OWS has its own needs for stroke differences so we shouldn't have to comply with every nuance that Fina or others insist Olympic racers have to.

    We should at least swim as much as possible by the FINA rules. Otherwise one can't compare ow swimming with pool swimming.
    You might not be interested to compare it that way but the majority does it that way. With or without the help of the media.
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  • Niek, yes there was a butterflyer at the 2012 Big Shoulders swim who used breaststroke kicks on the fly.

    Also as you know, butterfly evolved from the breaststroke. It was not its own stroke until the 1950s (as we now know it). Therefore, WOWSA took into account this history.

    The rules, as used by WOWSA for its swims (outside of the English Channel, Catalina Channel, MIMS etc.), effectively eliminate the flutter kick (freestyle kick) on the butterfly, but it allows the breaststroke kick (see below). The butterflying open water swimmers around the world were comfortable with the rules.

    If other organizations or other swimmers wish to follow different rules, that is perfectly OK. We are pretty sure there will be other variations of these rules - and other organizations that will not even recognize any individual strokes. As we all know, this variance in rules has precedence in the freestyle world (e.g., the rule differences between the FISA, LTSS, CSA, CS&PF, CCSF, SBCSA, TCSA, TSSA, ACNEG, FINA, USMS, ASA, BLDSA, ILDSA, and individual races).

    All up and down movements of the legs and feet must be simultaneous. The position of the legs or the fee need not be on the same level, but they shall not alternate in relation to one another. The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with the dolphin kick while doing the butterfly kick while doing the butterfly stroke at any time during the race. Only one breaststroke or whip kick is permitted per arm pull.

    Hayden,

    Butterflyers and breaststrokers, according to the WOWSA rules, do not need to touch France with 2 hands. But you bring up an excellent point so we added the following phrase in WOWSA 10.2 (butterfly) and WOWSA 12.2 (breaststroke) that reads, "A swimmer is allowed to stop swimming in shallow water as he approaches the shoreline and walk up on shore to clear the water as an athlete swimming freestyle would do. However, if the finish is in the water, a swimmer must simultaneously touch the finish pontoon or pad with two hands although they can be in a different plane."

    For WOWSA 11.2 (backstroke), the rule now reads, "A swimmer is allowed to stop swimming in shallow water as he approaches the shoreline and walk up on shore to clear the water as an athlete swimming freestyle would do. However, if the finish is in the water, a swimmer must touch the finish pontoon or pad with their hand while they remain on their back."

    These 3 changes are in the spirit of traditional butterfly, backstroke and breaststroke finishes in the pool while also maintaining a practical bent for swimmers finishing up onshore.
    Steven Munatones
    www.worldopenwaterswimmingassociation.com
    Huntington Beach, California, U.S.A.
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