Kayaks and Boat Drafting in the English Channel

evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
edited February 2013 in General Discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: Marathon Swimming Rules Survey.

Comments

  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013
    If you need a boat for safety than drafting is possible and even unavoidable. Read the article on the Loneswimmer.
    If there is no boat but there are other swimmers than drafting is also possible.

    In both cases I believe you would be stupid not to take full advantage of it.

    If there is a streamer you add an extra device that isn't necessary for safety and therefore it would be illegal.

    (I will object if the boat you use is a mammoth tanker. ;) )
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  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    Read the article on [http://loneswimmer.com/"]the Loneswimmer.

    What article is that? Please, direct links when possible.
  • oxooxo New Member
    edited February 2013
    Hmmm, I'll bite. So as long as a 'device' provides some safety, it is ok?
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013
    http://loneswimmer.com/2012/10/29/have-you-skin-in-the-game-wave-swimming-in-english-channel-swims/ took me a while to find it.

    hmmm, so as long as a 'device' provides some safety, it's ok?

    splitting hairs?
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  • oxooxo New Member
    edited February 2013
    It was an earnest attempt to understand your principles behind your statement.
  • A boat is needed and even mandatory in the Channel. No kayaks allowed.
    So if the boat is there it will affect the water and thus the swimmer. For safety you can't have the swimmer more than 5 meter away from the boat. Especially at night.
    So you have the drafting of the boat as a fact. Then you should use that to your advantage.

    If kayaks are allowed a mother ship can keep its distance. That way drafting of a kayak is negligible if swimming along site of it. Swimming behind it should not be allowed! Same conditions as in rule 10-p http://cspf.co.uk/cs-and-pf-rules : The second swimmer may swim alongside, but not in front, of the solo aspirant & must not impede the solo swimmer.

    A streamer is totally unnecessary for a swim. It's an artificial aid and those are forbidden.
    For a blind swimmer on could use a small bell on a pole in front of the swimmer. They need that and it is allowed. If a swimmer is fully sighted it would be an artificial (unnecessary) aid and would be disallowed.
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  • oxooxo New Member
    edited February 2013
    I still do not see your principle. That sounds like a practical reasoning - fair play. Going with that ... Crossings of the EC in all sorts of non-regulation craft are allowed if accompanied by an escort boat. Where is it written that kayaks are not allowed?
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013

    Where is it written that kayaks are not allowed?

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-searchandrescue/mcga-theroleofhmcoasguard/mcga_-_hm_coastguard_-_the_dover_strait.htm#crossingthe :
    Unconventional crossings of the Dover Strait in unorthodox craft
    Most of the unorthodox craft used in attempts to cross the Dover Strait are very small and have limited speed and ability to manoeuvre. They are not adequate for deep-sea navigation in a heavy traffic area. Their presence, or that of a group of them in the Dover Strait, will dangerously impede the vessels in the traffic lanes and may lead to a marine casualty. It is the view of the Anglo/French Safety of Navigation Group that such crossings are highly irresponsible, and that potential participants must be persuaded to look for a challenge elsewhere, in areas where they do not constitute a hazard to other people going about their lawful activities.........
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  • oxooxo New Member
    edited February 2013
    What you have quoted is for unescorted crossings. Where is it written that kayaks are not permitted when escorted by a boat?



    http://www.fullthrottleboatcharters.com/kayak-across-english-channel/

    Kayak across English Channel Safely
    We have RIB safety boats to escort you across the worlds busiest shipping lanes. This is quite a challenge when your in a Kayak that can only travel at 2 -6 knots. Some of the large ships travel at 20 knots so timing is everything. Our rib support vessels are equiped with AIS (Automatic Identification system) which allows us to track oncoming ships from up to 100 miles away and therefor avoid going near them this gives us plenty of time to change your course slightly to avoid going anywhere near them.




    http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2011/10/olympic-kayaking-hopeful-sets-new-record-time-for-english-channel-crossing/

    Olympic Kayaking hopeful sets new record time for English Channel crossing
    Posted: October 3, 2011
    British sprint canoeist Paul Wycherley set a new record for the fastest time to kayak across the English Channel at the weekend, beating a benchmark set by his coach Ian Wynne.
    ....
    On the morning itself we all set off in two pilot boats, one high speed rib and the other a tug boat with a GPS system directing the route across the channel.




    http://www.big5kayakchallenge.com/expeditions/crossing-the-english-channel

    Five members of Viking Kayak Club successfully paddled their sea kayaks across the English Channel on Saturday ...
    ...
    The team on the support boat was having an even worse time as the boats, which are legal requirements of crossing the busy shipping lanes, tossed around in the choppy seas and all the passengers were sick and couldn’t take the video footage they planned. Lance Oram, the support boat skipper confirmed that the conditions were “A little bit cheeky “.

  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013
    http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-searchandrescue/mcga-theroleofhmcoasguard/mcga_-_hm_coastguard_-_the_dover_strait.htm#crossingthe
    Swimming across the Channel is condoned if :The sole events excluded from the prohibition are those Cross Channel swimming attempts organised and approved by the Channel Swimming Association (CSA) and the Channel Swimming and Piloting Federation(CS&PF)

    They don't use a kayak as support vessel but a boat adequate for deep-sea navigation in a heavy traffic area because: Unorthodox craft, which are characterised by slow speed and poor or non-existent manoeuvrability, such as tyres, bathtubs, rafts and pedalos, are not authorised to proceed more than 300 metres from the French coast

    (besides all that you won't find an observer who will kayak besides you ;) )
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  • oxooxo New Member
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-searchandrescue/mcga-theroleofhmcoasguard/mcga_-_hm_coastguard_-_the_dover_strait.htm#crossingthe
    Swimming across the Channel is condoned if :The sole events excluded from the prohibition are those Cross Channel swimming attempts organised and approved by the Channel Swimming Association (CSA) and the Channel Swimming and Piloting Federation(CS&PF)

    If one looks at the details, the UK abdicate to the French, and the French abdicate to the UK. What you have quoted is what the UK say the French are saying. But the French never say that at all. For details see my post here:

    http://www.marathonswimmers.org/forum/discussion/345/csa-cspf#Item_41
    Niek said:

    They don't use a kayak as support vessel

    Agreed. But for the context of this forum, the kayak would not be the escort boat.
    Niek said:

    (besides all that you won't find an observer who will kayak besides you)

    Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, the observer can stay on the escort boat, with the kayaker and swimmer in one of the front quadrants.

    ========
    Kayaks are allowed in the EC, as are RIBs. Drafting of the escort boat is an option just like a streamer. It is not a fact due to safety concerns.
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013
    http://www.marathonswimmers.org/forum/discussion/345/csa-cspf#Item_41
    I've read it. But you better not try to do it without a pilot from the CS&PF or the CSA. Those French gendarmes will be waiting for you. Like wise you won't be able to start from the French coast because the French have forbidden that and you won't find a CS&PF or CSA pilot for the crossing because they won't risk their license.

    But for the context of this forum, the kayak would not be the escort boat.

    Then they would be an artificial aid and disallowed. Only a pace swimmer is allowed. (with restrictions)
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  • oxooxo New Member
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    I've read it.
    Apparently you haven't read it. France's governing body for this, their Maritime Prefect of the Channel and the North Sea, does not weigh in on who can and who cannot escort EC crossings. Read 15/93, linked to my my post here. France leaves it up to the UK. In practical terms, the CCA and Full Throttle Boat Charters apparently escort crossings that are UK/France complaint.
    Niek said:

    But for the context of this forum, the kayak would not be the escort boat.

    Then they would be an artificial aid and disallowed.
    Right, aiding the swimmer in abstaining from getting a speed advantage by next to the escort boat.

    Again, I concede to your superior sense of absurdity.


    ========

    Kayaks are allowed in the EC, as are RIBs. Drafting of the escort boat in the EC is an option, just like a streamer. It is not a fact due to safety concerns.

    Compared to incidental drafting, how much assistance can a swimmer get by intentionally drafting the escort boat? Intentional drafting is "essential to reaching the record, let alone breaking it"[1]
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013

    Again, I concede to your superior sense of absurdity.

    You're welcome. I do my best. One must make do with what one has.
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  • edited February 2013
    Niek said:


    So if the boat is there it will affect the water and thus the swimmer. For safety you can't have the swimmer more than 5 meter away from the boat. Especially at night.
    So you have the drafting of the boat as a fact.

    Not quite true. If the swimmer is 5 meters from the boat and parallel to it and their toes are less than 15.75 meters from where the bow touches the water, drafting should be fairly nonexistent. Bow wakes propagate at about 18.5 degrees, so the approximate general equation for the distance from the bow where drafting can occur is:

    D=m/sin(18.5) or D=m/0.3173, where D is the distance from the bow and m is the number of meters the swimmer is from the boat (and swimming parallel to the boat).

    However, it is true that the swimmer could be somewhat sheltered from waves/chop/wind regardless of where along the boat they are, dependent upon the direction of waves/wind/chop.

    -LBJ

    "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." - T.S. Eliot
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013
    15,75 meters
    The biggest boat is the 'Anastasia' from the CS&PF pilot Eddie Spelling with 12,80 meters
    All the other boats from CSA and CS&PF both are around 11 meters.
    So with your calculations they will have to swim behind the boats.

    That's unacceptable. For safety the pilot has to be able to see the swimmer. The best place is around half way.
    image
    The swimmer in this picture from the Anastasia is at the wrong place.
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  • oxooxo New Member
    edited February 2013
    Niek said:

    So with your calculations they will have to swim behind the boats.

    Your result is your misapplication of LBJ's formula. If you, Niek, want to swim midship, then divide the length of your boat in half and multiply it by 0.32. The result will be the maximum distance from your boat that you can be in order to intentionally draft, according to LBJ's formula, if I understand it correctly.

  • NiekNiek Member
    edited February 2013
    Nowhere in the formula is the length of the boat given. It has to be calculated.
    m= distance parallel to the boat

    To swim exact at the stern of a average 36 ft (11m) pilot boat one has to swim 3,49 meters parallel to the boat.
    D=m/0,3173=11 => D=3,49 meters

    The swimmer in the picture I estimate 18 meters from the bow and 8 meters parallel

    D=8/0,3173=25,21 meters => the swimmer is still swimming within the draft zone but he's in a very dangerous position.
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  • edited February 2013
    Per @oxo's comment: Yes, the intent was to show, based on the distance from the boat that a swimmer was located, how far from the bow of the boat one would need to be to benefit from a draft. This, @niek, was in response to your assertion that "So you have the drafting of the boat as a fact." My point being that you only have drafting under the correct physical configuration and it is NOT a given.
    I am emphatically NOT suggesting that someone swim in an unsafe manner to benefit from a draft.
    Also, your use of the formula is correct and when used that way, it gives the maximum distance a swimmer can be away from a boat of a given length while still being along the side of the boat and still benefit from a drafting effect. Any farther out and there is little/no benefit.

    -LBJ
    "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." - T.S. Eliot
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