Ironman news about swimming changes...

LeadhyenaLeadhyena Member
edited May 2013 in General Discussion
This is interesting: http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Swim_changes_for_NA_Ironmans_3599.html... specifically: "Also, WTC announced today that no swim will be conducted in water colder than 52 degrees or warmer than 88 degrees."
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Comments

  • Ah, 52 degrees. 2 degrees above the temperature at which we consider the cold has finally passed! :D
  • It's about time they took a stance about warm temperatures though. You know those triathletes will be swimming in 88F water WITH A WETSUIT, right??? Honestly I would have petitioned for a lower high temp than 88.
  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoMember
    Leadhyena said:

    It's about time they took a stance about warm temperatures though. You know those triathletes will be swimming in 88F water WITH A WETSUIT, right??? Honestly I would have petitioned for a lower high temp than 88.

    I think wetsuits are no longer legal in IM's at around 76F or so.
    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
  • timsroottimsroot Member
    edited May 2013
    dc_in_sf said:

    I think wetsuits are no longer legal in IM's at around 76F or so.

    I thought it was 78. THat said, I've heard plenty of people talk about how hard they try to make a triathlon wetsuit legal.

    I used to think I wanted to do an ironman just to say I finished one. THe more I hang out with triathletes, the less I want to do one.

    I found this tidbit a bit more interesting:

    Ironman swims will feature rafts at regular intervals so that contestants may rest if so desired. Resting on these rafts will not constitute a rules infraction, nor will resting on a paddleboard or other device or watercraft.

    What better way to encourage triathletes not to have to learn to swim.

  • NiekNiek Member
    edited May 2013
    Who wears a suit at 65 + temperatures have no brains.
    Ergo the brain can't be getting boiled. :))

    Serious: They are using the same max. temp as the Fina uses only they haven't considered the suit. Stupid!
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • WaterGirlWaterGirl Charter Member
    The USAT wetsuit rules are actually a little complicated:

    4.4 Wet suits. Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wet suit without penalty in any event sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water temperature is greater than 78 degrees, but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wet suit at their own discretion, provided however that participants who wear a wet suit within this temperature range shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Age group participants shall not wear wet suits in water temperatures equal to or greater than 84 degrees Fahrenheit. The wetsuit policy for elite athletes shall be determined by the USAT Athletes Advisory Council. The AAC has set the wetsuit maximum temperature for elite athletes at 68 degrees for swim distances less than 3000 meters and 71.6 degrees for distances of 3000 meters or greater.
    Any swimmer wearing a wetsuit with a thickness measured in any part greater than 5 millimeters shall be disqualified.

    Taken from http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/rulebook.aspx
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited May 2013
    The minimum and the maximum temperatures are under a study by the specialized University of Otago (NZL) as requested by FINA, IOC and ITU; when the results of this study are available, this Regulation will be amended accordingly.
    From: http://www.fina.org/H2O/docs/events/10km2012/rules.pdf

    I know that the results were know November 2012 but the university won't publish the results. They told me personally that that's up to the FINA. (who won't do it).
    I believe the FINA won't publish those results because that would result in NO swims in the rich Arabic countries and that's something those FINA bigwigs won't like.
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • Ironman Corporate rules as of 2010. Wetsuits may be worn in water temperatures up to and including 24.5 degrees Celsius/76.1 degrees Fahrenheit. Athletes who choose to wear a wetsuit in water temperatures exceeding 24.5 degrees C /76.1 degrees F will not be eligible for awards, including World Championship slots. Wetsuits will be prohibited in water temperatures greater than 28.8 degrees C/84 degrees F.

    So I’m certainly not a fan of the wetsuit for personal use, however they are not going away in the triathlon world, no matter what. Arguably the modern swimming wetsuit is the major reason for the tremendous growth of triathlon over the last 20-years. Please note other triathlon federations have different rules, for example the United States Triathlon (UST) wetsuit prohibition is two degrees higher at 78F.

    I conduct several open water swim clinics a year in the Denver area, my audience is 90% triathlete, I teach it towards wetsuit use. Triathlon has become a big participation sport. Many of the participants greatest goal is to complete it not compete it. There doing it because of Cancer awareness or because all there friends signed up etc. Even though my clinics state minimum swim standards should be met many of them can barely swim. One could say I should advise them not to do it and although I will express concern and emphasis safety I know there is not much I could say that would deter them when all there “friends” have signed up. I have learned to ask my clinic attendees if they intend to wear a wetsuit most will say yes, however occasionally I get a slender women who not a good swimmer say no, in which case I strongly suggest they rent one primarily for safety reasons both to avoid possible hypothermia and the floatation assistance.

    On reading the linked article in it’s entirety I’m happy with direction the Ironman Corporation is going, they are clearly addressing some swimmer safety issues and that is a good thing.
  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    edited May 2013
    timsroot said:

    THe more I hang out with triathletes, the less I want to do one.

    I found this tidbit a bit more interesting:

    "Ironman swims will feature rafts at regular intervals so that contestants may rest if so desired. Resting on these rafts will not constitute a rules infraction, nor will resting on a paddleboard or other device or watercraft."

    What better way to encourage triathletes not to have to learn to swim.

    Read any of my "triathlete organized" OW swim reviews on my blog. I am with you! From resting on kayaks to swimming with a pull buoy to walking the low-water-level section of a 4 x 1KM loop course, I am all done with triathlete-organized OW swims.
  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    Niek said:


    I believe the FINA won't publish those results because that would result in NO swims in the rich Arabic countries and that's something those FINA bigwigs won't like.

    And it would show that they should have not held the race that Fran died in.
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    I think you all miss a very important point.

    When I returned to competition after being away nearly 20 years, I began by doing triathlons. I did them in part because I had a lot of problems with a shoulder and could get away with minimal swim training. I loved the sport because I finished so high up in the swim and convinced myself I could still swim fast. I loved finishing in the top 5% of a 1,000 person field. I even took 3rd twice in a race with over 400 people. Unfortunately, this didn't carry over to pure OW races. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with living in an illusion.
  • NiekNiek Member

    source: Please note that due to current temperatures and bad weather forecasts, in accordance with ITU Rules to be able to ensure athletes` safety, the course has been changed to a Duathlon event 9.5km run - 87 km bike - 20 km run.

    source: Explanation: the autumnal weather in recent weeks has reduced the water temperature of Lake Malsaucy which reached 13.9 ° C today. According to the
    Regulations of the ITU (International Triathlon Union) this temperature must be greater than or equal to 16 ° C for triathletes soar on a course
    swimming 4km. Therefore, for safety reasons, the representatives of the ITU decided to cancel swimming and replace the first part of
    Running. The World Triathlon Long Distance in 2013 and looks like a Duathlon Championship, triathletes prepare to go
    9.5 km in

    Wimps.
    It's time they introduce ICE-triatlon without wetsuit. :))
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • Niek said:

    Wimps.
    It's time they introduce ICE-triatlon without wetsuit. :))

    There's a guy who trains at my club who is there. I saw his post about the swim getting cancelled, and I chuckled a bit.
  • Watching a world cup triathlon, because there's nothing else on TV. Is it common for triathlons to break up 1500m swims into two laps with the athletes having to get out of the water in between? Seems lame to me. And another reason I don't care to compete in that sport
  • AquaRobAquaRob Charter Member
    timsroot said:

    Is it common for triathlons to break up 1500m swims into two laps with the athletes having to get out of the water in between? Seems lame to me.

    I had to do that on a 2.4 mile swim put on by a triathlon promoter in Port Hueneme... generally that would be a mild inconvenience (on top of being lame), but the exciting part was that we had 7-8 waves and 52 degree water that day! Not everyone made it out onto the course for the first lap and a lot of people just skipped the second one to avoid going through the washing machine again!
  • timsroot said:

    Is it common for triathlons to break up 1500m swims into two laps with the athletes having to get out of the water in between?

    It is common in the world cup circuit, why I don't know. I suspect for fans to see the swimmers again.

    It is unusual though not unheard of in amateur competitions to have a two loop swim for 1500 meters. That would happen if the lake was small.

  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    But to leave the water in the middle of the swim? That's weird.
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    What's not weird about swimming in a wetsuit and still getting cold?
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    Interesting article here race-panic-during-open-water-swimming-and-triathlons
    Only shouldn't the title be race-panic-during-open-water-swimming-part-of-triathlons
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited June 2013

    timsroot said:

    Is it common for triathlons to break up 1500m swims into two laps with the athletes having to get out of the water in between?

    It is common in the world cup circuit, why I don't know. I suspect for fans to see the swimmers again.
    The FINA World Cup circuit? Definitely loops, but I'm pretty sure they don't get out of the water.
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013

    It is common in the world cup circuit, why I don't know. I suspect for fans to see the swimmers again.

    According to the new FINA rules all starts are from a platform. [running is for triathlon and for those Aussie races ;) ]
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    Niek said:

    It is common in the world cup circuit, why I don't know. I suspect for fans to see the swimmers again.
    According to the new FINA rules all starts are from a platform. [running is for triathlon and for those Aussie races ;) ]

    I trust your knowledge, @Niek, so perhaps I'm wrong. Do you know which races specifically?
  • evmo said:

    The FINA World Cup circuit? Definitely loops, but I'm pretty sure they don't get out of the water.

    ITU Triathlon world cup. I've never seen a FINA world cup televized
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    A Dutch referee followed the FINA school for ow officials last May in Portugal.
    He reported the fact that only platform starts are allowed according to FINA rules.
    Will need some adjustments in the Netherlands because at the moment all but 1 started with the swimmers in the water.
    Hoorn (hosting a LEN-cup) will be the 2nd this year with a start from a platform.
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    What just happened? @Niek you edited your post.

    Please clarify: Do swimmers exit the water mid-race on the FINA (10km) World Cup circuit, or not?

    Thanks.
  • NiekNiek Member
    No the whole race takes place in the water.
    Starting with a platform start and ending with a finish-chute finish.
    The swimmers is obliged to tap the finish banner that has to be 60 cm above the water.
    Not touching the banner results in a disqualification.

    see http://noww.nl/node/675 (use Google to translate).
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    Niek said:

    No the whole race takes place in the water.

    Cool, that's what I thought. Thanks. I guess I misunderstood that @Kevin_in_MD meant the triathlon world cup, not the OWS world cup.
  • MunatonesMunatones Member
    edited June 2013
    FINA races do not need to have a platform dive start; there are plenty of FINA-sanctioned races that have in-the-water starts (the world championships and Olympics are among the exceptions). Also, if a swimmer does not touch the finish banner (which does happen in every race), the swimmer is not disqualified. The swimmer (in nearly every instance) immediately touches the banner on his/her next stroke. I believe, however, if the swimmer refuses to touch the banner, or physically cannot touch the banner, then the swimmer would be classified as DNF (Did Not Finish) as opposed to DQ (disqualified).
    Steven Munatones
    www.worldopenwaterswimmingassociation.com
    Huntington Beach, California, U.S.A.
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    Steve, platform starts and touching the banner is what they told at the FINA school for ow officials.
    Maybe that will be the new rules for next year. I'll will ask and let you know.
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    I think that if they are going to require triathletes to exit and reenter the water in the middle of the swim leg, then they should also make them take off and put back on their wetsuit when they do it. Talk about making it spectator friendly.
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    I checked.
    FINA just wants that every start is from a platform.
    It's not a rule (but they will be very persuasive, I think).
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • From my greenhorn point of view as a first time season OWS. I think I am hearing far too much fun poking in general about triathletes in general from OWS. I think this isolates us and we lose our credibility. In general it is just not cool to make fun of other athletes that train hard and have dreams. I do not mean this thread directly, but I hear it a lot in social media. They have less body fat, and they wear them also for protection. I am tri-ing for 10 years, and I hate being scratched, kicked and hit at the start. My neo' gives me a feeling of protection.
    Now, I also want to say here and I know it will not make me very popular, that until you have swum 3,8, biked 180, and run 42,2 (all together) finishing before the cut off time, then you have, in my eyes, earned the right to have a go at making fun of them.
    My tri team have been very supportive of my training, and this humbles me. Please keep this in mind, we are all just athletes and we have to stick together.
    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    @Dawn_Treader I respect what they accomplish but triathletes should learn to swim properly (in ow). They should take the swimming part more serious.
    Why skip the swimming part when the temp. is 14+ degrees? Doesn't their suit gives protection against cold? Min temp for a normal ows is 16 degrees. Only 2 degrees higher.

    This will be interesting to follow:
    image
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • In addition to what @niek said, as a former cyclist, triathletes in groups make me nervous. I've seen some very poor bike handling among triathletes that I was amazed didn't result in more crashes.

    I respect the fitness triathletes have, and there are some who can ride comfortably and safely in a pack, but those seem to be the exception, not the rule.

    Adding to what niek said, many triathletes seem to view the swim as an almost unnecessary hurdle instead of a valid sport.

    I have triathlete friends, but I'm not overly interested in competing in one at this point.
  • I don't get the antipathy that Ows have towards triathletes.

    I love ows I'm not in the league of you guys on here distance wise (hopefully I will address that in the next 2 months) but I swim year round in the sea and I love partaking in triathlons. Nearly all my local ow swimmers snear a little when they see me put on my wetsuit for a "long" swim, even though they all know I can swim as well as most and better than lots of them with or without my wetsuit.

    I wear a wetsuit to allow me to swim longer earlier and later each season, I take it off when the water warms a little and also when it gets so cold that I can only splash and dash.

    I just don't get the problem, I never hear tri people slagging off ow swimmers or slagging cyclists or runners but you do hear it coming the other way?

    Can anyone explain why that is?

  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    Maybe because a lot of ow events at present day are forbidden for speedo only.
    The organizers don't believe one can swim in 16+ degrees without a wetsuit.
    The fact that wetsuit manufactures and local shop owners sponsor some of those events won't help the bioprene swimmer neither to change the organizers way of thinking.

    Example: http://www.greatswim.org Requirements: Wetsuits, swimmers of all abilities are welcome
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • @inthepocket - I've been told directly that my interests were "too one disciplined". I've also had people seem very surprised that I wouldn't wear a wetsuit in 75 degree water. Or that some swims won't count the swim, regardless of water temperature, if a wetsuit is worn
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    Open water swimming terms and conditions Wet suits are mandatory for young swimmers aged 12-18 years regardless of water temperature and must fit correctly and be suitable for the purpose of swimming,
    source: 8 June WATER TEMP 16°C
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • Ok I can see the issue regarding the wetsuits.

    Is this not a result of health and safety gone mad in modern society and the organizers being worried about being sued? As well as suit manufacturers money.
  • NiekNiek Member
    I doubt that.
    Healthy? The whole time locked up in neoprene won't do your skin good.
    Safer? I rather have kids learn to swim outdoors in bioprene. That way if they accidental fall into water from a quay/bridge/boat they know how to swim and float without the comfort of neoprene.
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • Ok I can see the issue regarding the wetsuits.

    Is this not a result of health and safety gone mad in modern society and the organizers being worried about being sued? As well as suit manufacturers money.

    If they were that much safer, then you would expect a better fatality record from triathlons, wouldn't you? This goes back to @Niek's pint about learning to swim properly.
  • I think you misunderstand me Niek

    If someone organizing a swim or triathlon or any event for that matter is not seen to take all reasonable precautions they can be held liable for reasons of negligence. So they all go over the top trying to protect themselves by insisting on wetsuits or cancelling events at the first sign of a wave etc.

    Different countries different laws but it's hard to argue that most societies arnt getting more and more litigious in these areas.

    @timsroot there are rude people in lots of walks of life, who ever said your focus was too one dimensional was being at best inconsiderate and probably just up themselves.

    By the way I think what you guys do is amazing and inspiring.
  • @timsroot
    Safety is not the issue in my opinion, ass covering as a result of health and safety legislation and laws is the issue.

    being seen to have taken all possible step to ensure safety of those for whom you have a duty of care is pretty priceless if you wind up in a court accused of negligence.

    I have no idea about fatalities or injuries in either ows or triathlon.
  • Man, did I open a can of worms-good we talk about it. My point was more about respect, as athletes. Yes many are wimps about cold water, but some are fierce as hell, and angry when swims get cancelled.
    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.
  • Man, did I open a can of worms-good we talk about it. My point was more about respect, as athletes. Yes many are wimps about cold water, but some are fierce as hell, and angry when swims get cancelled.

    That goes both ways, I think. I've picked up a decent amount of disrespect from triathletes because I "only" compete in one sport.

    But it is what it is. I don't swim to make friends, although I've made dear friends in this sport. I don't race for prizes, although they can be nice. I don't expect people to understand why I want to swim such long swims in such cold water without a wetsuit. People seem to dismiss me as a crazy person, and most days, I'm okay with it.

  • Fair enough Timsroot. For any over opinionated triathletes you may encounter.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KTEgLKhjIwI hope the link works.
    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.
  • NiekNiek Member
    edited June 2013
    My point at learn to swim see from 1:10-1:20 minutes
    If you see them swim there it's disastrous. No wonder because I reckon 80% of the swimming technique is learned in a pool without the wetsuit on.
    If you want to swim in a wetsuit than at least wear them during pool training because swimming with is totally different than without (body position and arm and leg restrictions are totally different) or you'll never learn how to swim in a suit.
    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    I'll give another perspective. I've been recruited by a local tri club to coach their masters swim team because of my OW and marathon experience. Only been doing it two weeks but I've had a great experience with these folks.
    We give each other crap, good natured joshing about their fear of water below 76* and my lack of running ability.
    I've made it clear in the past my problems with triathletes in triathlete-organized OW swims. But what do I expect? I entered those races knowing full well I'd be swimming with skinny endurance junkies who see no problem with resting on kayaks, swimming with pull buoys or walking shallow sections of a 4k race. ;)
  • Niek, that was the swim start, everyone swims like that in the start. You keep your limbs close to your body and your head up until it thins out, or else you get hit in the face or your fingers hurt. What I do think though is that they do depend too much on their suits yes, and they don't kick enough. From all the running they have shorter ligaments (a swim coach told me this, don't know if it is true) and they have trouble with foot flexibility.
    This is an interesting point though Niek. I think that as a hobby triathlete it is difficult to get really good in all the disciplines, and so you focus on that which is easiest/faster to get faster in e.g. the bike. Swimming is so complex and it takes dedicated time to get good at, and if you learn it as an adult, even harder.
    Sisu: a Finnish term meaning strength of will, determination, perseverance, and acting rationally in the face of adversity.
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