110 miles, 53 hours: Questions for Diana Nyad

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  • The video looks like she has a following swell, which would increase her speed, but her swimming looks nowhere near fast enough. She also sounds tired and inward, not a speedy disposition, more a plodding phase. But maybe the swell, current and swim direction all match up......I wouldn't know. But I feel that if the conditions do support a faster swim, you still have to swim faster to make the best speed, not just allow the water to carry you faster. How fast did Trent Grimsey look for the seven hours he covered the EC on the bow wave? Diana just looks slow, as is her normal way. I would like to see some film of when she was supposed to be swimming at the highest speeds.

    But I think we must accept Ms Hinkles' observation that Diana "swam every stroke" which implies Diana stayed in the water, but does she recognise the implications of holding onto a kayak for instance during a feed or being undressed by helpers? Would an untrained swimming observer, still say "swam every stroke"? I think perhaps they might.

    Such 'offences' in my opinion do little to make Dianas' swim disqualified. She never professed to honour EC rules, so I can (only just) live with holding onto a boat during a feed, but not holding on for a rest, nor getting out for a sleep.

    This swim is not a matter of crossing an ocean like Ben Lacomte or Guy Delage or how Dan Martin planned, where rules have to be invented. It is very much a single event long distance swim which (in my opinion) needed to embrace much of the foundation of EC rules.

    We could simply ask Diana to list all the things in this swim, which bent EC rules. She will be well aware of those areas which lose the integrity of the swim when comparing with EC rules. We could then make our minds up as to how they affect the integrity of this swim.
  • I stated this earlier to evmo but for what it's worth... My 2 cents (which aren't worth squat since I haven't done any amazing swims as many of you have in this forum) - is the swim legit? Most likely yes. Should it be in the World Book of Records? Only if an official observer from that organization was on the boat, otherwise, no.

    More than anything - any and ALL instances varying from channel rules (did someone else apply her sunscreen, did a doctor touch her while listening to lungs, the swim line/streamer, people pushing jellies out of the way, stinger suit and mask) all need to be documented for the NEXT person.

    DN tried to promote her last attempts as "the first person to swim from Cuba to Florida" and it was only pressure (?) on the media for it to get changed this time to "first person to swim it without a shark cage".

    The person who swims this next without a jellyfish mover, swin line/streamer, etc. ---- until we get to Channel "clean" ---- will be making the new firsts. By not disclosing WHAT she did is trying to keep her "first" by omission.

    And I agree with suziedods... rather amazing that for such an epic/historical swim, one did not own and manage their own Spot?
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    edited September 2013
    Haydn said:

    But I think we must accept Ms Hinkles' observation that Diana "swam every stroke"

    Frankly I'm not sure what that phase means. Swam every yard, meter or mile, but every stroke? We all understand it wasn't a relay. Ms Hinkles' use of the phase indicates a less than accurate use of words. Sloppy prose, sometimes reflects sloppy thinking. With all of the questions raised, I would hope to hear more than "swam every stroke" from the person Diana designated as one of her 2 official observers. These are the 2 people she place the success or failure of her entire swim on. Just doesn't make sense. It sounds more like they were only observers in only a ceremonial sense of the word.
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    "Nyad's navigator and one of the swim's official observers told The Associated Press this weekend that Nyad didn't cheat and that she was aided during the rapid part of her swim by a swift current. And neither Nyad nor her team ever said she would follow English Channel rules, developed for swimming the waters between England and France. Those rules outlaw protective wetsuits and contact with a support boat."

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57601879/diana-nyad-team-becoming-sensitive-to-skeptics/

    Navigator and official observer? That's a no-no in my book
  • Haydn said:

    But I think we must accept Ms Hinkles' observation that Diana "swam every stroke"

    The observers weren't on the main vessel Voyager the whole time. http://www.diananyad.com/blog/remarkably-well Apparently they did a shift observing on the Voyager and than went back to another boat.

    http://openwaterswimming.eu - Cold, wind, waves, sunburn, currents, jellyfish and flotsam! Hop in and join the fun!
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    "The data collected by Bartlett and two observers will be submitted to three open-water swimming associations and the Guinness World Records for verification, Bartlett said."

    Now which associations is she talking about?


    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/08/20387406-diana-nyads-team-responds-to-skeptics-doubting-her-swim?lite
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    RuffWater said:

    One thing I can't shake from my head is the image of DN swimming at hour 33...
    By the looks of the charts that have been created, she was moving at 6km/hour at hour 33 (down from 10km a few hours prior). Even if it was current aided, I can't make it make sense in my head.

    @RuffWater, thanks for saying this. I believe this is a key issue underlying much of the skepticism about this swim. A slightly awkward issue that some are reluctant to acknowledge explicitly.

    Which is: Experienced swimmers know what good swimming looks like. Fast swimming. In videos of Diana swimming, it seems obvious that she is making very little self-propelled forward progress. It raises alarm bells when GPS tracking data show the same swimmer progressing faster than the fastest marathon swimmers in the world.
  • suziedods said:

    I do have a hard time believing that a $200 spot tracker was not bought. What with the 100's of thousands of dollars spent.

    I think you're responding to my mention of the 2 GPS Spots being lent to us. So, to explain that - think of Diana's team less as a paid top-down team and more as a chaotic relatively unmanaged group of volunteers that once a year hears "RED ALERT!" and scrambles to do what they can, falling somewhere inside their role from the year prior.

    2 years ago we wanted to track the swim somehow, and the only obvious method was the boat's navigation system. That was woefully inadequate. In the following year, some kind employees of CNN were nice enough to point us to a long list of GPS tracking solutions. Notably we didn't just want tracking though, we wanted to send data off the boat including that position, to get some kind of interesting web experience during the swim - no one looks at the site other than during that swim, and if we have no data leaving the boat, no one's getting any of what they came for. See our stats showing that traffic pattern here:

    http://www.diananyad.com/blog/web-stats-2013

    We dealt with a long list of vendors who were generally looking forward to our spending thousands and thousands on solutions with no promises they'd perform. Some definitely felt they were doing us a favor if they cut it to fewer thousands with fewer promises and some DIY asks. None of it was doable on budget. Time was getting tight for the 2012 swim - Diana had already delayed it once even though the currents were right to give us a shot at figuring this out. Finally, someone was nice enough to lend us these Spots, and CNN lent us a way to get data off the boat (satellite data connection). Installing the connection was... non-trivial. We ran several trial runs with the GPS Spots over a couple days then off to Cuba Diana's team went, and the 2012 swim began. Our 2013 solution was essentially unchanged, and I have to thankfully say, far less stressful.

    So, I realize that thinking of just the final solution we landed on and its cost seems like very little, but there's so much more to it when you're trying to find a solution, including asking "Hey will this work in Cuban national waters?" as part of that conversation. Research costs a ton in time and can be pricey in terms of money.

    As a side note, for those suspecting the cost of a GPS Spot to be a one-time fee, if you want to do real-time tracking like we were doing there's also a monthly fee involved. If you decide to send messages off the boat with them, you're in for a ride... generally I'd just recommend you don't bother. Their best feature is definitely their core feature - you could be a little crazy and get ~1-minute resolution with 5-10 of them all set to Track Progress. You'd need a lot of spare rechargeable batteries and some chargers with you.
  • edited September 2013
    This is what 6km/hour swimming looks like:



    DN team does not contest this was the speed she was moving (Barlett says 4mph which is ~ 6.5km/hour)

    But, again, I knew nothing about these currents and their power. I sure am impressed by them now.
  • I'll just answer's @Haydn's question about Trent for the speed and "composure" examples, though it was "only" a seven-hour swim.

    Trent went on with a usual flooding tide, on neap. The tide gate flow-rate on neap well outside Dover Harbour is about 2.5 knots ( 4.6 kilometres per hour) at the low end. (E.g. for neaps this coming week, it is never less than 2.5 knts). Trent's speed is that of top Gran Prix FINA swimmers, ~5k per hour unassisted.

    With that tide, at the start of his swim, the 2012 World Number 1, covered 6.5 kilometres, in his first, freshest hour.

    The theoretical max speed, combined Trent with tidal flow rate, is 10.5 kilometres, than which he was 4 kilometres lower. I can only assume because he was going slightly east across the tide, the first leg of the reverse-S you've all seen, and not perfectly aligned with the tide.
    So after 30 hours, DN swam faster than the 40-year-younger, 24 year old Gran Prix winner in his freshest hour in a tidal current that is notoriously fast even on neap & he was in the much-debated boat wave.

    As to how he looked: He was completely mentally and physically focused, except for a dip in the fifth hour, when the recovery phase of his left arm deteriorated and he started to straight-arm his recovery for a short while, maybe 10 minutes, until Harley his coach called him on it. He later said he was feeling frustrated with himself. He otherwise always looked composed, and both driven, and driving. Both a long stroke and a fast stroke rate. It was phenomenal to watch for the entire swim. This is a short video from 3 hours in.

    Another comparison. I recently observed forum member @Owenswims93 on his new 60k down the Blackwater river swim, total swim time 12 hrs 8 mins; 5 hours down river, 1 hour against tide, 6 hours with ebb tide. @Owenswims93 is very fast and sickeningly young ;-) (Round Jersey Record last month) I had RunKeeper giving me audio GPS-based pace & distance travelled updates while I kayaked in the upper river. In the upper river, lower summer rate, but still the fastest part of the flow/swim, about 4 hours into the swim, his fastest speed was 8 minutes and 45 seconds for the one fastest kilometre. Which is an average speed of ... 5 kilometres per hour for 60 kilometres, 11 hours with a flow.
  • To give you all some more quantitative data to look at, I've recalculated Diana's speed using the GPS data kindly provided by @b9chris. I used the same routine's to calculate the distance between GPS points and her bearing that @malanika used in his plot http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html. There was a bit of scatter in the dt's between the coordinates, but the main features in the plot are pretty much identical (such as the sustained 3mph to 4+mph hump in the middle of the swim).

    image

    I've been following this thread with quite a bit of interest, both as an aspiring marathon swimmer and a physicist. I'm hoping to compare some of the GPS data against local surface current data/models from SECOORA (or other sources if there are any other places people recommend), but that might take a bit more time.

    The numbers that went into this plot are shared in this google spreadsheet:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuPBnlGWL25cdENzcXhfMm1sVF9PSFdMUHllTWp5a1E&usp=sharing

    and if anyone has questions or wants more details I'd be happy to provide them.

    John Royer
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer Admin
    edited September 2013
    A forum member has privately asked me to submit this question:

    Who is submitting the data/entry/application to the Guinness Book of World Records? Will it be @Munatones as it was apparently intended to be on previous occasions?

    The application process starts at least 6 weeks in advance, and a Record Adjudicator is specified.

    The process for Guinness World Record Application is here and includes this:
    "Record Adjudication is the verification process Guinness World Records undertakes to confirm whether a world record has been achieved. A Record Adjudicator is the official Guinness World Records judge who performs the verification.
    You are not required to have an Adjudicator present when you attempt a record - but if you do not, you must carefully document and record your attempt so our team of Adjudicators can assess the evidence you send to us and verify whether your attempt has been successful."

    Under what heading/record/description would this thing be entered?

    The criteria for a GWR are: Measurable / Verifiable / Breakable / Based on a single variable.

    All are essential. That last one means you can have the longest swim, the fastest swim, the first, the greatest distance etc. But you can only claim a record for ONE variable.

    We know @PennyPalfrey; (longest unassisted Cuba-Florida), Suzie Maroney; (first assisted Cuba-Florida), Kevin Murphy; (longest unassisted swim).
  • b9chris said:

    So, I realize that thinking of just the final solution we landed on and its cost seems like very little, but there's so much more to it when you're trying to find a solution, including asking "Hey will this work in Cuban national waters?" as part of that conversation. Research costs a ton in time and can be pricey in terms of money.

    As a side note, for those suspecting the cost of a GPS Spot to be a one-time fee, if you want to do real-time tracking like we were doing there's also a monthly fee involved. If you decide to send messages off the boat with them, you're in for a ride... generally I'd just recommend you don't bother. Their best feature is definitely their core feature - you could be a little crazy and get ~1-minute resolution with 5-10 of them all set to Track Progress. You'd need a lot of spare rechargeable batteries and some chargers with you.

    Sandycove Island SC and all of the CS&PF pilots have SPOT Trackers. These cost only about €100 to buy new and there is an annual (not monthly) charge of about €140 for the real-time tracking feature. Not an outlandish cost by any means!

    They require three AAA batteries and will work perfectly for 50+ hours on one set of batteries: Lance Oram has one on "Sea Satin" and it worked from 10:00 am on Saturday, 19 September 2009 through Lisa Cummins' English Channel 2-way solo and my 1-way solo finishing at 12:00 on Monday, 21 September 2009...

    According to this map, the SPOT Tracker should have full coverage right across the Florida Strait. Why shouldn't it?

    The Sandycove Island SC SPOT Tracker has covered two of my long swims on the River Blackwater, a Lake Zurich swim, a Strait of Gibraltar swim, many English Channel swims, my Tory Sound swim and a multitude of others. It has never given any problems.
    http://fermoyfish.com – Owen O'Keefe (Fermoy, Ireland)
  • This is a topic that just keeps giving.

    So pretty much Diana Nyad didn't really make it across in her 5th attempt.

    Her team also can't prove it. Which I find amazing given the cost involved to attempt such a challenge.

    But it doesn't seem like she even cares.

    Out of interest as someone who plans on doing an English Channel crossing in the next season, has Diana Nyad ever attempted swimming the English Channel, as I can't see on the crossing roll of honor that she's done something that should be so simple for someone of her claimed ability?

    It's just weird.
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member


    The process for Guinness World Record Application is here and includes this:
    "Record Adjudication is the verification process Guinness World Records undertakes to confirm whether a world record has been achieved.

    The criteria for a GWR are: Measurable / Verifiable / Breakable / Based on a single variable.

    All are essential. That last one means you can have the longest swim, the fastest swim, the first, the greatest distance etc. But you can only claim a record for ONE variable.

    Maybe I should submit mine:

    Shortest period of time between 2 unsuccessful English Channel attempts where one was with CSA and the other with CS&PF.

    This is easily verifiable.
  • Nyad attempted the EC three times. No success. Jabez Wolff attempted 47 times , no success.
    I love swimming
    www.suziedodsswimcoaching.com
  • I was not following the excruciating detail of the swim as it was happening online, nor do I have a TV (or cable.) I do know that CNN had a huge amount of involvement in the swim, even offering their satellite link for the data to the website (per the post by Diana's web team.) Did CNN have a reporter (staff or freelancer) on any of the boats with the flotilla? This could become a credibility issue for them if they did.

    Second: does anyone know any Florida Strait current experts that were NOT involved with the swim? We have now seen the brief visual analysis of the GPS/timestamp info, but there still is a big missing piece. Is there proof from an independent scientific source (and is not commercial in nature) that the currents could have moved the way Diana's camp says they did and could explain the swim speeds? And could they have moved that way during those exact moments?

    Have to admit, I'm more than a little surprised by the pervasive lack of skepticism among the media. Yes, we all love a good heart-warming story where a human being achieves something absolutely extraordinary, but the initial data do not pass the smell test. I can't have any conclusions yet because there still are not enough data points to fully answer questions, but my flags are more than waving in the air. The fact that Diana's swimming peers have such intense skepticism should be enough for a lot of people, but apparently not.
  • sylmarinosylmarino Member
    edited September 2013
    @owenswim93 - thank you. I find it odd to point out but getting Spot tracking was difficult to arrange and stated to be costly but having a PR firm was not?
  • b9chris said:

    So, I realize that thinking of just the final solution we landed on and its cost seems like very little, but there's so much more to it when you're trying to find a solution, including asking "Hey will this work in Cuban national waters?" as part of that conversation. Research costs a ton in time and can be pricey in terms of money.

    ... SPOT Trackers. These cost only about €100 to buy new and there is an annual (not monthly) charge of about €140 for the real-time tracking feature. Not an outlandish cost by any means!
    Again, we were looking at the larger problem of GPS + getting data off a boat, not just GPS. It took a lot to get to the finish line. If you imagine the cost as just "Buy 2 Spots" it seems very simple, but where we started we had a long list of possibilities and no guarantees that any would work. It took a lot of research to get to an answer, and some spending. That's my point - it's the research, not the cost of the Spots we finally ended up with.

    It's a bit like telling someone who's never bought a car before to just go get one, then knocking them for buying something overpriced. We'd never tried to get data (and as a subgoal, live GPS) off a boat in Cuban national waters, where they're known to interfere with connectivity. That there was someone out there somewhere that would've told us the answer is fine hindsight information, but it doesn't change the challenge it presented at the time.
  • LisaLisa Temporary Suspension
    edited September 2013
    Peter71 said:

    Out of interest as someone who plans on doing an English Channel crossing in the next season, has Diana Nyad ever attempted swimming the English Channel, as I can't see on the crossing roll of honor that she's done something that should be so simple for someone of her claimed ability?

    Before everyone starts slamming Diana's previous feats, and claiming she can't be a real swimmer because she didn't manage the Channel, it can be noted, with absolute certainty, that she completed a tougher swim than the Channel, 52km across Lake Ontario in 1974. She was the first to successfully do a north-south crossing, a direction made far more difficult because of the strong Niagara River current that would have been against her for the final third of the swim. Her 18 hour time still stands as the record for this direction. Also, it was overseen by the irreproachable ISHOFer Cliff Lumsdon, so don't bother questioning it.

    Amazing how small-minded some of the comments are in this thread...
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    Lisa said:

    Amazing how small-minded some of the comments are in this thread...

    On the contrary, I think the thread has been remarkably high minded. Keep in mind this is an internet forum. An internet forum that has now made national news for engaging in fact-checking that actual journalists didn't bother with.
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    evmo said:
    "Bartlett said that currents varied, and that the team had worked Nyad sideways and northward through the currents, a technique called crabbing. “Everyone is saying, Wow, she was going fast, how is that possible?” Bartlett said. “The currents were going fast.”"

    If she had the currents pushing her to Key West it seems that there wouldn't be a whole lot of crabbing going on.
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    evmo said:
    "One, Janet Hinkle, a licensed Key West boat captain, said she got the call at the last minute. She said she had met Nyad in 2011, providing her with a home to live in before a swim. Hinkle had never observed any swim, but she said she got tips from Munatones and said she was unbiased."

    Well it seems like at least one of the observers got some "tips". However, it doesn't sound like there was enough time for either of the observers to receive sufficient training.
  • LisaLisa Temporary Suspension
    edited September 2013
    bobswims said:

    Why is it that DN supporters seem to abruptly show up on this forum and then just as fast adios? Frankly I think their input on Diana and her swim is useful. Not so useful is attacking the people who have in good faith come forward with questions?

    I am not a Diana supporter. I am not a Diana anything. I didn't follow this swim, nor any of her past attempts. Whether she truly did this one or not doesn't particularly affect my life in any way. I do not care. I have generally avoided getting involved in any of this. Lots of other things to do with my time! But when I happen to drop by the site and see people questioning a swimmer's ability based on whether they completed the Channel, and surmising it should be a "simple thing" for someone of their "claimed ability", I find that a tad bit offensive. I know great swimmers who have failed at the Channel, then succeeded at other swims that are more difficult. What it has to do with Cuba-to-Florida is beyond me and serves to invite unwarranted denigration of the past, rather than examination of the present. Not cool in my book.
  • malinakamalinaka Seattle, WACharter Member
    Just want to say a public Thank You to @b9chris. Both his open comments and private ones have been professional, patient, and informative. He is a shining example of the transparency we all have been looking for. Furthermore, he's helped me towards my goal of making my next swim just that much better.

    Thank you.
    I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.
  • malinakamalinaka Seattle, WACharter Member
    @jroyer Well done with that analysis. Your look at the bearing direction is a new direction. It is amazing how such a small set of data can yield so much information. I hope your search for currents is more fruitful than mine has been thusfar.
    I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.
  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoMember
    I am a slow swimmer, but I recently participated in a swim where my average speed was 5.5km/h because of the currents involved. The only time during the swim that I truly appreciated how fast I (or rather the water I was in) was going was when I encountered a buoy and could see the water streaming past it. The only resemblance I had to Trent Grimsey at the time I was approaching his velocity was the fact that he and I are both Australian and we both wear jammers. Our strokes and stroke rates are worlds apart.

    The point being that the GPS tracks and the video of Ms Nyad swimming at a given apparent speed form one half of the picture of the swim. Without accurate data* on the currents encountered there is no way to draw meaningful conclusions about the swim from only those sources that are contrary to the published account.

    *I would allow that if the pattern of the currents in a particular location are well known, then knowledge of the specifics on a given day may not be important if the implied currents fall well outside of an established set of norms

    In so far as it is possible on an internet forum I would prefer to see a discussion that does not jump to hasty conclusions, other than that I have no horse in this race.
    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
  • How fast do you think Diana would've travelled if she'd simply flipped over on her back and floated once she hit the Gulf Stream?

    BTW, this is the best moderated, most entertaining, educational internet forum string I've ever followed.

    Some of you might appreciate my tongue-in-cheek blog post - http://tricoachmartin.blogspot.com/2013/09/diana-nyad-gulf-stream-and-olympic.html
  • dc_in_sfdc_in_sf San FranciscoMember

    How fast do you think Diana would've travelled if she'd simply flipped over on her back and floated once she hit the Gulf Stream?

    BTW, this is the best moderated, most entertaining, educational internet forum string I've ever followed.

    Some of you might appreciate my tongue-in-cheek blog post - http://tricoachmartin.blogspot.com/2013/09/diana-nyad-gulf-stream-and-olympic.html

    Olympic 10km swims are in current neutral water so not really an apple to apples comparison.

    If you want an even more extreme example, the record for MIMS (a 28.5 mile swim) is ~5h:45m or nearly 5mph (8km/h) sustained. Current assistance can indeed be awesome (heck see my previous post)
    http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    ADMIN NOTE: I deleted several posts that were not germane to the current topic, the last of which was a re-posting of a within-Forum private message, which is not allowed.

    No more follow-up posts on the points made by @Lisa. Thank you.
  • bobswimsbobswims Charter Member
    If a person continues a discussion started in a thread by improperly sending an unwanted and unsolicited private message, either the private message should be allowed to be republished, or the person sending offensive personal attacks under the guise of a "private message" ON THIS FORUM then the person doing such should be banned from the site.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    The preferred course of action in the instance of a private message that the recipient finds to be offensive is to contact the Admins, rather than posting it publicly. Thank you.
  • Hey all, I'm not an open water swimmer, just a ~1 mile pool swimmer who happened to develop Diana's website. I hope what I've provided here helps a bit with fact-checking, and I've passed more data on privately to @evmo, @malinak and a couple others so they can fact-check that. I think I've contributed about as much as I can here besides "You guys are so impressive!" so I'm gonna bow out unless needed further.

    Before I go I want to make just one quick appeal. When the Boston bombers hit my hometown's marathon earlier this year, I wanted answers - a good and reasonable feeling. But when members of an internet forum (Reddit in this case) wanted answers, they took it a step further and jumped to conclusions. They posted their evidence, their analyses, and over about a week built it up to identify what they believed to be the 2 bombers. Even though the experts (the FBI in this case) were doing their own parallel investigation, they concluded they had the right answer, and announced their conclusions with certainty. They posted their faces, their names, their addresses. Since then, one of the 2 has turned up dead, a presumed suicide, and the other's family left the country to get away from the in-person harassment. Days later, the real Boston bombers were identified by the FBI - neither of the 2 identified on Reddit were actually guilty of this crime. I doubt there's anyone here who hasn't heard the rest of that story.

    I love data, and I love science - skepticism is good. But asserting a conclusion comes with risk - often asymmetric risk in that the person making the assertion risks little, while the target risks a great deal. What's at stake here is much less - no one's life hangs in the balance. But someone's legacy does, and I hope all those who feel themselves starting to jump to conclusions stop and think of what's at stake. What if you were the one who had tried so many times most of who you knew had given up on you. What if even you had given up several times, promising begging friends not to try again. And then, one day, you pulled it off - probably even surprising yourself? What if it was you.

    Be reasonable everybody, and be good to each other. And once again - you all impress me.
  • For me, whether or not Diana accomplished this feat currently pales in comparison to the un-sportsman like comments regarding other attempts at this crossing:

    "At her post-swim news conference on Tuesday, Nyad admitted that she had not been rooting for McCardel and that she was miffed some members of her team would jump ship to work for a competitor"

    Apparently Diana Nyad lives on Planet Nyad, where special-needs physics and justifications abound. She does not take our sport seriously and appears to be merely interested in being the entertaining "motivational speaker" and selling her story.

    Regrettably, I bought one of her "extreme dream" teeshirts during the original attempt a few years ago with the belief that this was a real attempt by a kindred spirit. This piece of fabric has been relegated to wiping the toilet bowl...
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    @b9chris - I want to join @malinaka's public Thank you. I respect and appreciate you coming on here and contributing as you have - openly and thoughtfully. Frankly it's a great credit to Diana's team.

    All the best with your web dev business - and your swimming too!

    Evan
  • I have to make another Admin announcement following @evmo's, and I'd like everyone to take note.

    We have a PRIVATE Message system. The vast majority of members respect this. It's one of the benefits of actually joining the forum, rather than lurking. With the private message system you can have direct contact with some of the world's best marathon swimmers, make new friends, have sidebar discussions, ask advice or offer help.

    We have had two violations related to this thread. Forum rules are now explicit. Violating the privacy of the message system will lead to a no-appeal immediate ban and the violator will not be allowed to re-join the forum.

    I'd like to join @evmo & everyone else in thanks to @b9chris for his public and private engagement and openness, and hopefully he'll stay active as a member, maybe we can get him to sign up for his first 10k!
  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    Lynnkub said:

    For me, whether or not Diana accomplished this feat currently pales in comparison to the un-sportsman like comments regarding other attempts at this crossing:

    From the start I was skeptical, if only because of her previous attempts. I found her blog and saw pictures of her being helped with putting on her suit. But even that didn't bother me, because I swear I remember her or her team stating that she'd be wearing the suit for this swim. I could even take the streamer, again, because I'm pretty sure she mentioned she'd be using it.

    But when I read that she went without food or drink for more than 7.5 hours on the second night, well, then I no longer believed anything coming out of her camp. I cannot imagine someone in that state of exhaustion could go that long without at least water, and I don't believe the medical professionals in her flotilla would allow that. Her supporters or crew, the few that have come on here, haven't helped her case any either, with the sole exception of @b9chris, whom I would like to thank also.

    I don't know if we'll ever know for sure. But I learned that should I ever attempt a swim that's not been done before, I'm certainly going to have independent observers' reports and lots of evidence available for all of you to review!
  • Kudos to Evan for starting this thread. It has drawn no less than worldwide attention. Hopefully, this discussion and debate will move our sport in the positive direction it deserves. Marathon swimmers are a special breed. The breadth and depth of this discussion reflects that. From my perspective, it is among the best substantive discussions I've witnessed regarding a sporting event in a long time.
    Lactate is for wimps.
  • Lynnkub said:

    For me, whether or not Diana accomplished this feat currently pales in comparison to the un-sportsman like comments regarding other attempts at this crossing:

    "At her post-swim news conference on Tuesday, Nyad admitted that she had not been rooting for McCardel and that she was miffed some members of her team would jump ship to work for a competitor"

    One COULD interpret that as social engineering or perhaps a confidence trick. Legitimize yourself by comparing yourself to other professionals.
  • evmoevmo San FranciscoAdmin
    edited September 2013
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-plans-meet-swimmers-doubting-her-feat
    Diana Nyad is planning to meet with members of the marathon swimming community who are skeptical about her 110-mile swim from Cuba to Florida, her team said Monday.
    [...]
    Nyad planned to meet Tuesday with "her peers in the swimming community," Crotin said.
    I can confirm that this is scheduled to happen tomorrow evening.
  • IronMikeIronMike Bishkek, KyrgyzstanCharter Member
    @evmo, where? Is this meeting with SBCSA?
  • Media Coverage. Monday (09-09-2013) at 8:00 P.M. EST Anderson Cooper (AC360) on CNN will be covering the Nyad post-swim story. I cannot vouch for the show but will tell you that he people I know there always have been better journalists than entertainers. I encourage folks to watch it.
  • evmo said:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-plans-meet-swimmers-doubting-her-feat

    Diana Nyad is planning to meet with members of the marathon swimming community who are skeptical about her 110-mile swim from Cuba to Florida, her team said Monday.
    [...]
    Nyad planned to meet Tuesday with "her peers in the swimming community," Crotin said.
    I can confirm that this is scheduled to happen tomorrow evening.
    @evmo, this is great. Please let her know that we are not "haters", that we are not being petty and that the questions are not due to "sour grapes". I am sure she understands that such an incredibly unprecedented swim needs to be vetted and verified for posterity and to aid anyone who may wish to follow in her footsteps in the future.
  • evmo said:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-plans-meet-swimmers-doubting-her-feat

    Diana Nyad is planning to meet with members of the marathon swimming community who are skeptical about her 110-mile swim from Cuba to Florida, her team said Monday.
    [...]
    Nyad planned to meet Tuesday with "her peers in the swimming community," Crotin said.
    I can confirm that this is scheduled to happen tomorrow evening.
    Great forum :-) ...didn't know it was around until a car ride with SBCSA people yesterday swimming SLO county piers.
    Does anyone know who will be at this meeting?
  • Diana Nyad and her team. A moderator. @Evmo & I and some well-known people to you all, some of whom are also members of the forum, and some others have been invited. Currently close to 20 people that I've seen on the invitation list.
  • JimeboyJimeboy Temporary Suspension
    Very cool if she meets some of you and answers some questions. I can't wait.
  • I hope someone brings a video camera and an "independent observer".
  • http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/09/sports/questions-and-doubt-after-a-record-swim-from-cuba-to-florida.html?pagewanted=2

    "...the tactics she employs — like letting her crew remove her shark suit and apply lotions. Many swimmers say those violate the most common rules of the sport."

    Yes, that's called an 'assisted' swim and should be recorded as such and for the other deviations away from Channel Rules (yes, I know she didn't say she was following Channel Rules) - they all need to be recorded.

    Just as she wants to be known to be the first to swim without a shark cage, the next person should be able to say they are the first to swim it unassisted or with less assistance than DN used (directional streamer or without people helping in/out of a suite, etc.) or use the same assistance and swam it faster/slower, whatever.

    It was an assisted swim. State the assistance so that the next person can swim it and say they were first to do it without a shark cage and streamer and blah, blah, blah until you get to EC clean if possible.

    I'm not so sure why that is so hard for DN and her camp to understand this. They were very clear to finally change their positioning on this swim "first without a shark cage" instead of "first [ever]".
  • rckayak said:

    Media Coverage. Monday (09-09-2013) at 8:00 P.M. EST Anderson Cooper (AC360) on CNN will be covering the Nyad post-swim story. I cannot vouch for the show but will tell you that he people I know there always have been better journalists than entertainers. I encourage folks to watch it.

    Somebody plse post the link. I'd like to go to bed now...
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